Mobile Fidelity - True AAA analogue sources or Digital layers???

[SpyderTracks]

Hi all

There aren't many audio nerds on the forum but thought I'd post this anyway.

2 of my favorite YouTube audio nerds are getting together for a rather special livestream on this Sunday at 7pm UK time

This is 45RPM Audiophile who will be hosting it who is a wonderful German reviewer of audiophile grade vinyl releases. He's got an incredibly wide music taste that covers all genre's and knows a lot of the big names from the record pressing industry, so gets a lot of insider information that otherwise may be missed.

His channel is here: https://www.youtube.com/c/45rpmaudiophile

The guest on the livestream is going to be none other than Michael Fremer who is a bit of a legend in the Audio world, both for hardware reviews, and for his vast knowledge of vinyl over the years.

For those who are interested, he has his own new channel here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCj8HvEZPUSI0IkMhtuRcqIg

 

[Deleted member 41971]

There aren't many audio nerds on the forum but thought I'd post this anyway.

while that may be true, its still interesting to see this info as audio is the main part of the music experience, anything to improve on that is interesting to note.

 

[AgentCooper]

I love Fremer. Even though he looks grumpy 98% of the time his unerring passion and enthusiasm for the medium is boundless.

 

[SpyderTracks]

I love Fremer. Even though he looks grumpy 98% of the time his unerring passion and enthusiasm for the medium is boundless.

He is amazing. Very infectious attitude generally.

His knowledge of almost any first press Vs audiophile grade remaster is just insane.

But then you see his basement where he stores his records and does all his hardware auditioning, and you can see the guy is definitely a little obsessive Nothing but respect for the sickos!

 

[SpyderTracks]

Just a heads up, for any of you buying MoFi records.

The latest MoFi UD1S pre order for Michael Jackson - Thriller of which there will be 40,000 copies which is significantly higher than any version before it, it's raised some questions about what exactly UD1S means.

The previous assumption, based on the included media in the UD1S releases suggests that a "Stamper" is made from the original master tapes, then this is used to press a certain batch of records, could be anywhere from say 500 to 1000. Then after this, that stamper (which is made from soft lacquers) is compromised to the point it would sacrifice sound performance, so is binned, and a new one must be made. The new one has to be made directly from the master tapes as the whole point of the 1 Step process is that creating metal "plates" from the master which would normally be used to then create additional stampers is bypassed which reduces loss during the copy procedure.

But this then begs the question, how on earth are MoFi creating these further stampers, especially when considering a huge run of 40,000 copies, where you'd be having to rerun the master tapes perhaps 40 - 65 times to create stampers to complete the run? There's no way any record label is going to allow the masters to be used that many times for one record press, just not a chance. Masters are treated like gold dust, and normally a copied metal would be issued rather than the original master tape anyway, it's only certain labels that would ever be allowed access to the actual masters.

A lot of the YouTube reviewers have correctly called this out publicly on their videos, and a guy I've only recently been introduced to in relation to this issue who owns an Audiophile record store in Phoenix Arizona and has a YouTube channel called "The In Groove", he was the first guy to call out MoFi, not to penalise them in any way as most of us that own some MoFi copies, they are generally some of the best sounding versions of that record that you can get, but more just for transparency so that people are fully aware of the process so they can make a more informed decision when buying.

This was his initial video:

And this is his latest update tonight:

He's been invited to MoFi on Tuesday for a meeting with them so they can explain everything as transparently as possible while he's filming, should be an interesting watch and I'll post a link when it goes live.


The argument for some is that they demand an all analogue pressing, and anything outside of that just isn't good enough.

I don't really gel with that, where I do love a good analogue pressing when available, if MoFi have figured out a method involving a digital layer that still retains the kind of sound quality they're regularly putting out, then I have no issue with that whatsoever and wish them every success BUT they need to be far more open about how they produce these records, and not try to hide it.

This is purely about transparency for the community for the benefit of all.

 

[SpyderTracks]

By the way, Michael of 45RPM Audiophile has said that he'll be leaving the video up so there's no need to watch it live.

 

[SpyderTracks]

Well, that was certainly an interesting watch, and I actually saw a glimpse of Michael 45 RPM get angry.

Let's see what comes out of the In Groove visit with MoFi on Tuesday

 

[SpyderTracks]

Just a heads up, for any of you buying MoFi records.

The latest MoFi UD1S pre order for Michael Jackson - Thriller of which there will be 40,000 copies which is significantly higher than any version before it, it's raised some questions about what exactly UD1S means.

The previous assumption, based on the included media in the UD1S releases suggests that a "Stamper" is made from the original master tapes, then this is used to press a certain batch of records, could be anywhere from say 500 to 1000. Then after this, that stamper (which is made from soft lacquers) is compromised to the point it would sacrifice sound performance, so is binned, and a new one must be made. The new one has to be made directly from the master tapes as the whole point of the 1 Step process is that creating metal "plates" from the master which would normally be used to then create additional stampers is bypassed which reduces loss during the copy procedure.

But this then begs the question, how on earth are MoFi creating these further stampers, especially when considering a huge run of 40,000 copies, where you'd be having to rerun the master tapes perhaps 40 - 65 times to create stampers to complete the run? There's no way any record label is going to allow the masters to be used that many times for one record press, just not a chance. Masters are treated like gold dust, and normally a copied metal would be issued rather than the original master tape anyway, it's only certain labels that would ever be allowed access to the actual masters.

A lot of the YouTube reviewers have correctly called this out publicly on their videos, and a guy I've only recently been introduced to in relation to this issue who owns an Audiophile record store in Phoenix Arizona and has a YouTube channel called "The In Groove", he was the first guy to call out MoFi, not to penalise them in any way as most of us that own some MoFi copies, they are generally some of the best sounding versions of that record that you can get, but more just for transparency so that people are fully aware of the process so they can make a more informed decision when buying.

This was his initial video:

And this is his latest update tonight:

He's been invited to MoFi on Tuesday for a meeting with them so they can explain everything as transparently as possible while he's filming, should be an interesting watch and I'll post a link when it goes live.


The argument for some is that they demand an all analogue pressing, and anything outside of that just isn't good enough.

I don't really gel with that, where I do love a good analogue pressing when available, if MoFi have figured out a method involving a digital layer that still retains the kind of sound quality they're regularly putting out, then I have no issue with that whatsoever and wish them every success BUT they need to be far more open about how they produce these records, and not try to hide it.

This is purely about transparency for the community for the benefit of all.

So here we are guys, an update interview direct with MoFi from The In Groove

TLDR: They do indeed often create a 4 x DSD copy from the master tapes to use to create the stampers

DSD is 256 x the sample rate of a CD (44.1 KHz)

So these are 11.2 MHz!

So yeah, it's a pretty monumentally accurate digital file


BUT IT'S A DIGITAL FILE at the end of the day.

The fact they use this digital layer, is not an issue for most people, although a lot of their long term loyal customers are extremely allegiant to a true AAA Analogue chain.

It doesn't change the fact that a lot of their copies are the best in the world.

No one has ever suggested the quality has ever been an issue. No one has suggested that they shouldn't be using Digital sources on presses if they want to.

BUT, they shouldn't have misled people, that was really silly.

I think they're gonna lose some longer term loyal people to Analogue Productions and Acoustic Sounds as a result of this.

At the end of the day, they know who their fanbase are, and they know what expectations they're putting out with the UD1S promotional material they've put out since it's inception, as you can see, there's no mention of a transfer to a digital copy before the lacquer from the "original master recording", when they've specifically mentioned on the standard press that the source is "source material" rather than any reference to the master:

Skip to 19:35 for the promise that they will be including some kind of rating metric on each record cover to identify what process it's been through and what the source is

20:42 is an interesting point where Mike mentions that he's had a chance to listen to some upcoming releases and he's really impressed with the results. My guess is that he's including the MJ Thriller release in this, as this is a major contention amongst fans about weather MoFi can retain the UD1S quality on a 40,000 production run.

They didn't give any specific point in time when they moved to using digital copies so couldn't corroborate Michaels sources that this was in 2015 when they started the UD1S cuts.

 

[SpyderTracks]

There's another video from 45 RPM Audiophile and Michael Fremer on this topic which is here, it's been kept up, hopefully long term

I personally agree with both the Michaels here, no bad intentions towards Michael Esposito from The In Groove whatsoever, but I don't think he had the weapons required to deal with this kind of interview.

I think we need a proper interview with highly regarded people in the industry that know the technology.

The question that's coming out of this is that:

1/. There's a reason people will pay $125 for a record when they're told it's AAA, aside from quality of the sound, it's the work that goes into it for a true analogue cut

2/. The resulting quality of the sound was never in question, nor was MoFi's methods. It was purely down to the customer being told the truth about weather they were true AAA cuts.

 

[SpyderTracks]

So there's a lot going on as a result of all this.

It's not all over.

Fremer has done a follow up video on his own channel here:

Then 45 RPM Audiophile has announced another livestream with Himself and Chad Kassem on Sunday again at 7PM UK time

For those that don't know, Chad Kassem is another legend in the vinyl world, he is the CEO of Acoustic Sounds which is a boutique audiophile record shop, he presses for Analogue Productions which is an audiophile press much like MoFi, he also owns Quality Record Pressings (QRP) which is a highly regarded pressing plant. On the side he also owns a high res digital download service called Super Hi-Rez

But basically Analogue Productions / Acoustic Sounds, are MoFi's biggest competitor, and if they have been telling the truth about their analogue sources unlike MoFi (which no one currently disputes), you'll see a lot of long time MoFi customers moving to Analogue Productions.

Announcement:

45 RPM Channel for the livestream on Sunday at 8PM: https://www.youtube.com/c/45RPMAudiophile

 

[SpyderTracks]

I'm just watching the 45 RPM interview with Analogue Productions Chad Kassem

I admire the man, he refuses to give any criticism of MoFi, hasn't mentioned them at all, only driven home exactly what Analogue Productions work ethos and standards are.

Very respectable.

And yes, he's driven home that they work direct from original masters without any digital layer, and if not they highlight it very clearly in all material.

Again, it will be left up on YouTube so no need to watch it live

 

[RichardDavies99]

I heard a lot of audiophile discs are half speed mastered to get a more accurate copy, especially when the lacquer master is being cut.

 

[SpyderTracks]

I heard a lot of audiophile discs are half speed mastered to get a more accurate copy, especially when the lacquer master is being cut.

Yeah, very true. MoFi used to do half speed mastering back in the day (70's to 90's perhaps) but then they dropped it although don't know why exactly. It is a lot more of a laborious process and I believe quite expensive for the kit (like hyper resolution to see the extra information), but does offer some interesting results.

Abbey Road famously do their half speed mastered series of which I have quite a few, really like them, generally had some excellent copies through them, but not everyone is a fan, a lot of people think that they miss out on some lower end which is inherent with half speed mastering.

And the latest 50th Anniversary limited of Ziggy Stardust and the Spider from Mars was a half speed master, and a really impressive result


Just as a sidenote to the ongoing MoFi saga.

For me, one of the true silver linings of the whole situation is having been introduced to Mike Esposito from The In Groove. I've been watching quite a few of his video's, the guy has an incredibly in depth knowledge of best copies to get, he does individual album videos where he spans the decades through with all the various releases of the record saying which ones are best from a financial perspective through to money no object versions. And he's not just saying these things, he owns all the copies he's talking about, and we're talking some of the most important copies ever released.

Really impressive knowledge. Backed up by an insane system and of course the fact he owns a record shop since the 80's I think. He's a stand up guy.

Problem is my wishlist has grown exponentially since watching his videos!

 

[Deleted member 41971]

Yeah, very true. MoFi used to do half speed mastering back in the day (70's to 90's perhaps) but then they dropped it although don't know why exactly. It is a lot more of a laborious process and I believe quite expensive for the kit (like hyper resolution to see the extra information), but does offer some interesting results.

Abbey Road famously do their half speed mastered series of which I have quite a few, really like them, generally had some excellent copies through them, but not everyone is a fan, a lot of people think that they miss out on some lower end which is inherent with half speed mastering.

And the latest 50th Anniversary limited of Ziggy Stardust and the Spider from Mars was a half speed master, and a really impressive result


Just as a sidenote to the ongoing MoFi saga.

For me, one of the true silver linings of the whole situation is having been introduced to Mike Esposito from The In Groove. I've been watching quite a few of his video's, the guy has an incredibly in depth knowledge of best copies to get, he does individual album videos where he spans the decades through with all the various releases of the record saying which ones are best from a financial perspective through to money no object versions. And he's not just saying these things, he owns all the copies he's talking about, and we're talking some of the most important copies ever released.

Really impressive knowledge. Backed up by an insane system and of course the fact he owns a record shop since the 80's I think. He's a stand up guy.

Problem is my wishlist has grown exponentially since watching his videos!

thanks for sharing the links, quite interesting info, good to delve into a bit further

Problem is my wishlist has grown exponentially since watching his videos

yes that's known as the @ActuallyDenz syndrome

 

[SpyderTracks]

There's a small wrap up video by 45 RPM Audiophile here:

Some good that will hopefully come out of this:

MoFi, and hopefully other labels and publishers to adopts a universal grading system, much like the SPARS code on CD's which looks something like below where it shows ADD:

Where essentially it is 3 letter representing the 3 stages of recording to pressing.

• First letter – the type of audio recorder (usually a tape recorder) used during initial recording (analog or digital)
• Second letter – the type of audio recorder used during mixing (analog or digital)
• Third letter – the type of mastering used (always digital for CD releases)

Audiophiles now when referencing a true analogue source will usually refer to them as a AAA pressing

SPARS code - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Deleted member 41971]

i saw this and thought of @SpyderTracks

Company presses your ashes into vinyl when you die

Music lovers can now be immortalised when they die by having their ashes baked into vinyl records to leave behind for loved ones

www.wired.co.uk

don't know why 🤷‍♀️

 

[SpyderTracks]

Ah, ok, so major update from MoFi

On their historical listings, they've added a bit in bold under the title to identify the mastering chain.

Example: https://mofi.com/products/mfsl2-481...ly_180g_45rpm_2lp?_pos=4&_sid=b75db4e15&_ss=r

1/4" / 15 IPS / Dolby A analog copy direct to lathe​

This is brilliant going forwards, and what's been called for throughout the industry since the 80's really. I sincerely hope that this is adopted universally.

 

[SpyderTracks]

An update from MoFi on Twitter

Source:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552337214419378176

I still think Jim Davis really needed to make a public apology on camera and a long time ago, I have no idea why he's left it this late!

I've heard reports that avid collectors are returning huge libraries of MoFi records as they've been missold, weather or not MoFi are taking those returns or not, I don't know, but I don't really see how they can't in good faith without avoiding a pretty serious court case.

There's no doubt they're doing good things from here, that's great to see. We'll see what damage this does to them in the long term, I think they're big enough to weather it.