How should we advise on budget systems

AgentCooper

At Least I Have Chicken
Moderator
I’m just going to interject here with my personal opinion. If the OP has a low budget and wants to build a bottom end system we should still do the best we can to accommodate their wishes.

I ideally wouldn’t want to configure a £600 720p spec with an integrated GPU and would also generally suggest a console which would batter the best possible system we could come up with at that price.

If we highlight that pound for pound, a low cost PC will pale in comparison to a console and offer little or nothing in the way of upgradability, we’re doing the right thing. Ideally, we’ll want to push for a PC that’ll afford them a backbone to build on and last them many years.

But if OP hears that argument, is willing to live with the compromises and still wants to go ahead with a purchase, we should still help out as best we can.
 

SpyderTracks

We love you Ukraine
I’m just going to interject here with my personal opinion. If the OP has a low budget and wants to build a bottom end system we should still do the best we can to accommodate their wishes.

I ideally wouldn’t want to configure a £600 720p spec with an integrated GPU and would also generally suggest a console which would batter the best possible system we could come up with at that price.

If we highlight that pound for pound, a low cost PC will pale in comparison to a console and offer little or nothing in the way of upgradability, we’re doing the right thing. Ideally, we’ll want to push for a PC that’ll afford them a backbone to build on and last them many years.

But if OP hears that argument, is willing to live with the compromises and still wants to go ahead with a purchase, we should still help out as best we can.
I strongly disagree with this.

I think it's a far more helpful response to say why it's important to save up more.

If a person gave me a budget to build to and I knew it wasn't going to give them a satisfactory experience, I would refuse to do it, out of respect for them. If they still wanted to, they could go somewhere like PC World where they care more about sales than customer satisfaction. That's how bad systems are designed.

Now, I in no way think that this kind of build requires a £1500 pc, that's completely overblown, but at the same time, despite the low requirements, I fully know that £400 isn't going to cut it in any way shape or form.

It's simply not the case that you can build to any budget, there is always a floor where the cost of performance and upgradeability puts the system at a far higher value than makes sense for the sake of cheaping out at the outset. That's where the honest guidance comes in, not pandering to requests made out of ignorance, but education so they can realise the benefits of saving up further in the short term for long term gain.

People don't understand hardware, they come for honest advice. I don't want this place to become just another PC World.

And it's almost always the case that peoples needs change over the lifetime of the build, this is only MORE relevant the younger they are. People starting off with a system for Minecraft and Roblox will very quickly want to move up to higher end AAA's.

Coming from my own experience, realising the PC I had just wasn't capable of proper gaming when I reached that stage after a year or two of messing around with lower end stuff, and how frustrated I was that I couldn't simply add a dedicated GPU and had to pay a further £800 to get something that would do what I now needed it to, it's just so frustrating.
 
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NoddyPirate

Grand Master
Being totally honest, I find this whole thing utterly ridiculous.

We are not some gate keepers of financial prudence. If I want to spend my cash to get some short term hit, knowing that I'll need to spend more at some relatively close future date, that is up to me and not a single other human wlaking the planet. Someone telling me they won't help me becuase they don't like the value I am getting is farcical, and telling me that they're refusing to help me for my own good is - it's hard to find a word that isn't going to ruffle feathers here - it's looking down at me rather steeply - let's say that.

I have no idea how anyone here can say that staying quiet, refusing to help, and sending someone off to PCWorld is going to give a better outcome for them. That throws the "it's for the OP's benefit" out the window as far as I am concerned.

Yes people needs change, yes future proofing is sound advice and yes we should continue to give that advice. But we are only an advice forum, not a economic effectiveness monitoring group. If the mods want it to be something else then let's have a large banner on sign-in that says that unless you have £1,200 to spend then don't bother asking - that would be less offensive in my view.

Tell people what would be better - tell them what the limitations of what they are trying to do are - and if they still want to go ahead I see no reason not to help them with smiling faces and a guiding hand.
 

SpyderTracks

We love you Ukraine
I would never suggest something that would give a poor experience. If the customer still demanded it after the advice they were given, I would explain that we weren't the right company for them as I know from experience the problems they'll face with a poorly designed system.

I'm good at what I do, and a big part of that is that I know when to advise it isn't a good idea. If you go ahead and do it anyway just because that's what the customer wants, that's what brings about poor system design, expensive upkeep and ongoing support requests as well as major frustration for the customer. It's not in their best interests, even if they think it is, my experience knows better.

It's the 101 of systems design, it's one of the first things you're taught. There is actual science behind it.



And my advice would normally be to save up more, not that it wasn't possible.
 

AgentCooper

At Least I Have Chicken
Moderator
I think that the post below is very well put and makes all the right points, I can see myself quoting from it regularly in future:


I wouldn’t withdraw offers of assistance for a sub £1000 system. I would follow the tried and tested route of - save more, consider a console if it’s purely for gaming, look at a pre-build, check the second hand market... at the end of that, if the OP is aware of the pitfalls and limitations of trying for a low budget custom build and still wants to go ahead with one, who am I to stop them? If it’s possible, I’ll still try and assist.
 

SpyderTracks

We love you Ukraine
I think that the post below is very well put and makes all the right points, I can see myself quoting from it regularly in future:

Was that @DarTon ? I actually PM'd him because he was absolutely spot on.
 

ubuysa

The BSOD Doctor
I think that what we (you, obviosuly!) need to do is to give people expertly considered options. The @DarTon post is good for that reason, he provides choices with explanations of the advantages and disadvantages of each choice.

I'm in full agreement with @NoddyPirate, it's not our place to tell people what they should do and certainly not how they should spend their money. If any of us feels that a user is not listening to their advice or is determined to be dumb then just stop participating in that thread.

I think that @AgentCooper is also right that if, after all the advice to the contrary has been heard and either accepted or ignored, then we should do the best we can in the budget the user has - or walk away from the thread.

I don't think that any of us needs to feel personally responsible for the build any user eventually orders, all we can do is guide and advise, if they choose to still shoot themselves in the foot then.....well, it's their foot!
 

MrWilson

Godlike
I agree with the above. I think most importantly we should give OPTIONS to prospective customers. One of the joys of being on a forum is there are lots of people who know what they're talking about but have different opinions, and that's not a bad thing. Having different well explained options is fantastic for a buyer as it will allow them to make a much more informed choice.
My personal philosophy is that I won't spec anything that I wouldn't be happy buying myself. My standards have changed a lot over the few months as well; at one point I wouldn't settle for anything less than 850W RMx PSU whereas now I can see the justification in going a few rungs lower to save a bit of cash. This does unfortunately leave me on multiple occasions apologising to customers that I don't feel comfortable speccing PCs to certain budgets.
If the customer doesn't want to follow your advice that's their decision. It's their money and their purchase. If they decide this you can either work with them, or wish them the best and walk away. I've enjoyed working with other users and customers to put builds together and it's been great to see photos of happy gamers knowing I contributed a little bit to that setup; but at the other end I've walked away from a lot of threads because I've been impatient or infuriated with OP for not following advice, especially when it comes from users who have a lot more specialist knowledge than me.
Ultimately I'm a recently converted techie, who is constantly learning and trying to keep up with the times. I post on here in my free time to unwind a little, not to get exasperated by customers who disagree about how they can optimise their build. I have huge respect for the users who can remain calm and work with these customers while I'm off unloading my anger into some fantasy monsters elsewhere.
Got a little off track there. With regards to budget builds, I have a huge amount of respect for the users we have who are happy to work within the budget confines; but I will always be suggesting increasing the budget or looking at a console, and I will do my utmost to explain why each time.
 

NoddyPirate

Grand Master
I'm realising now that all this hoo-ha began for the OP in the original thread has even responded with their thoughts on what had been said. We don't even have any idea if they have read the suggestions, taken them on board and elected to avoid spening their money - yet here we are having a discussion about ethics. My unecessarily aggressive post above is partly to blame for all that - and I apologise to you all for it - while I don't retract my view I could have been more careful and thoughtful in my waffle.

@DarTon post was a super interjection and a nice overview of exactly what the problem is. I would just add to it to say that fleixbility/upgradibility isn't the only reason people will go for a custom build. One of the reasons high up my list was I was tired of sifting through budget off-the-shelf builds, in ugly cases that had ridiculous storage options with tiny RAM installs beside an ancient Intel pretend CPU. Coming to PCS allowed me choose my own storage layout and get the 32GB of RAM I needed for my photography workflow. There isn't a single PC on offer off-the-shelf with 32GB of RAM in my area that isn't at least twice the price of what I paid for my system. So upgradibility is important yes, but there is also the benefit of choosing every little bit of your system and knowing that everything is as good as you could make it for your money.

Choosing each aspect of my PC would have made my build worth it even if I had cornered myself with a build that could take no upgrades. In that case many of you may well have felt I had wasted my cash and broken the unwritten future-proofing rule - but I still would have been happy because what I achieved was absolutely impossible any other way.

Some of us have the luxury of living with the system they currently have and using their decent income to put more money away towards their dream build over a relatively short period for the future. But I would absloutely hate it if this forum became somewhere where those who need something workable now, or who don't have the financial means - or the financial inclination - to save for a better system are unwelcome. If build advice is only to be offered to those who are willing to align with a particular philosophical position on what value means, then I think it would be a sad day for all involved.

(EDIT - update to reduce waffle - slightly :rolleyes: )
 
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NoddyPirate

Grand Master
I just wanted to add to this one last time - a recent check my spec build here has me wondering about how the PCS configurator works out the required wattage for the PSU - we all know it's basic and doesn't future proof but I have long suspected that the system only checks the TDP rating of items when advising prospective customers of the PSU needs - and the following makes me think that's even more likely.

The build in question was an 18 core Intel i9 10980XE with a RX 6700XT. The CPU and GPU are officially rated at TDP's of 165W and 230W respectively - so if you use these values the 650W PSU it seems to have allowed through seems reasonable - ignoring future proofing of course - leaving about 255W for peripherals. Except that this would be completely misleading and inaccurate.

The 10980XE actually draws a max of about 325W during bursts - which with the GPU makes a total of 555W before any other peripherals have even been considered. I know having both CPU and GPU fully loaded is unlikely, but regardless I don't see any way that this PSU should ever have been allowed through the configurator - it simply could not ever handle a fully loaded system- with just 100W left for screens, USB, fans, cooler, drives, etc, etc.

(EDIT - turns out I misread my info and was looking at a chart with system power rather than just CPU alone - why does anyone make those charts anyway?! Actual numbers should be 255W for cpu for 485W without peripherals - so the point still stands I think.)

So why all that info? Because it just goes to show exactly how valuable the advice on here really is, and why what all the gurus here do is so useful and needed. Without intending to (or wanting to) restart the debate, it's a good example of a build that no one here - myself included - could ever work with or allow to happen - needless to say the usual suspects - @sck451 , @Martinr36 , @jamiephillips909 and @TomBerry are on the case and sorting it all out. :)

I hope I never gave the impression in my ranting above that we aren't anything but eager to assist and help people get what they are looking for. We may perhaps disagree on the details sometimes or where a line needs to be drawn, but we are bloody good at we do.

I'm glad we have had the discussion above - it's made me consider my place here a little more critically - but also made me further appreciate what a super place this forum really is.

Keep it up folks!
 
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RichardDavies99

Bronze Level Poster
I got my current computer from here for less than £600 & it runs just fine. I didn't need to spend a lot because I'm not a gamer.

I used PCS because I was struggling to find an off the shelf computer close to the spec I wanted, and with the customisation tool I managed to build one that was just right for my needs.
 
I just cant recommend a £900 pc that will be subpar to a console for £500 without even going into peripherals and a monitor if there adament they understand that its a throwaway pc then fair enough I got burned on a budget pc was frustration and exspense that I could do without so cant do it from that experience alone I just say my bit and move on especially the" im used to intel so im not changing my mind " post thread of amd vs intel and move on infomation is there its there money job done :)
 

ubuysa

The BSOD Doctor
I got my current computer from here for less than £600 & it runs just fine. I didn't need to spend a lot because I'm not a gamer.

I used PCS because I was struggling to find an off the shelf computer close to the spec I wanted, and with the customisation tool I managed to build one that was just right for my needs.
Same here but we have to understand that the overwhelming majority of users on here are either gamers or other high-end users. You can't get performance on a budget. :)
 
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